[BONUS] Live in Brooklyn Transcript

AUSTIN MITCHELL: You’re listening to The RFK Tapes live at The Bell House in Gowanus, Brooklyn.

AUSTIN: Thank you all for coming. I’m not Zac or Bil,. I’m sorry. Yeah, thanks. My name is Austin, I’m the senior producer of The RFK Tapes.

AUSTIN: I’m about to introduce Zac and Bill who are going to discuss the final episode. And later they’ll be joined by investigative journalist Dan Moldea and Bill and Dan will go head to head over their conflicting versions of the RFK case.

It’s a split crowd.

VOX: It wasn’t a conspiracy. I think police are incompetent.

VOX: Oh, definitely there’s some conspiracy there. There’s a lot of question marks.

VOX: I still think Sirhan Sirhan did it. I think there might have been some CTE and maybe some mind manipulation that goes along with it.

VOX: I mean, there’s too many coincidences for me just to accept, “Oh yeah, this was Sirhan Sirhan.”

VOX: I think that it was the Rosicrucians. Absolute mind control.

VOX: People tend to get a little lost in their own conspiracies and I kind of just lean towards the non-conspiracy.

VOX: I’m surprised that Zac has changed his tune and I feel like somebody got to him.

VOX: You know, I think I really believe the conspiracy theory. I think that Bill is spreading the good word and the gospel.

VOX: I think there’s an earnestness to Bill that makes you want to believe and I think there’s an abrasiveness to Dan that makes you not want to believe him, but ultimately, you know, I think Dan is probably right.

MAX: Cool. Hopefully we see some sparks tonight.  

ZAC: Hey everybody, I'm Zac Stuart-Pontier.

BILL: I'm Bill Klaber.

ZAC: And this is The RFK Tapes live. Thanks for coming Bill.

BILL: Hey, gonna be fun.

ZAC: It is. So all of those comments that we were looking at just now those all came in the last 24/36 hours or so.

AUSTIN: So projected on stage as the audience arrived were tweets and comments about the final episode, ranging from “A poetic meditation on our need to find meaning in the chaos” to  “Zac is a total sell out.”

BILL: I love them. I loved when you were getting trashed.

ZAC: You did?

BILL: Yeah.

ZAC: Tell me more about that.

BILL: Well you know I love the ones that said you know that Klaber guy wasn't allowed to really say what he thought you know and so.

ZAC: Have you heard from any any of our any of our friends?

BILL: Yeah.

ZAC: They're probably not my friends anymore.

BILL: No, no. I got at 4:30 in the morning I got an email from a guy saying what's going on? You know. I loved it. I said please send this message on to Zac. So.

ZAC: He did. What'd you think of the finale?

BILL: I didn't like it. I didn't like it I didn't think it. Basically it just felt like we left the LAPD off the hook you know and it seems to me that the best way to understand this case is really look at their conduct, really look at what they did and I think we left a lot of that on the floor.

ZAC: Were there some things that you felt like we should have done better in the show?

BILL: Yeah a bunch of them.

ZAC: We don't have a whole lot of time but we'll get into a few of them.

BILL: Yeah. You know. Sirhan's memory and motive. It appears from everything that we know - his dealing with the psychiatrist being hypnotized in a jail cell to his murder night interviews with the police. The guy doesn't seem like he has any idea of what he's doing. And of course eventually he was tagged with “oh he was a political assassin he did it to save his people” or whatever. He sure didn't act it that night.

Sirhan doesn't seem to have any idea that he did anything. He doesn't know. And that's what he said all along and basically I believe him in that.

When you watch what happens over the months before his trial you see what becomes a motive implant is that over and over again he is handed the political motive and since he doesn't know why he did it because he can't remember the crime and doesn't remember planning the crime he eventually has to adopt a motive because he has to answer that question just like anybody else does. So he adopts the political motive but I've never been convinced that that was a true motive because he just didn't act like a political assassin that night. His choice is either he's a crazy guy or he's a hero to his people. And after a time any one of us might make that decision. Well I'd rather be a hero than a crazy guy. So that's something else we could have explored.

ZAC: All right. Well you know what I would say to all this.

BILL: No you say go. Say it, say it.

ZAC: Well I think with this Sirhan thing I think we spent a whole episode talking about the motive implant. We just didn't use tape of that night. We used a lot of hypno. I mean there was a whole - it was one of my favorite episodes, shout out Jesse Rudoy who did a great job on that. All right one more. What's one more thing that you thought we could have done better?

BILL: We left a lot of stuff on the floor with the - call it the girl in the polka dot dress but it was the people seen with Sirhan the night of the murder. Now if Sirhan is walking around with people with him that night and being led around by this woman something else is going on and what that something else is we don't know. But the day after the police broke Sandra Serrano and she's the one that first brought forward the story of.

ZAC: She was saying that the people ran by her on the fire escape, she's heavily featured in that episode.

BILL: Right. And so they hand her over to Hank Hernandez who beats her up and beats her up and if you guys listen to that episode you heard him and you heard heard part of that and you're hearing a crime being committed when he's doing that because he is tampering with the evidence. This is not how you treat a witness to a crime. Might be how you treat somebody who's suspected of a crime. But you don't treat witnesses that way and they beat her up till finally she said ok whatever whatever you want me to say I'm done with this. And the very next day they held a press conference and said “The girl in the polka dot dress never existed. She was just a fabrication of this one overwrought campaign worker.” And the truth was they had over thirty people who had contacted them and said "yes we saw this woman we saw this woman with Sirhan and another man" and they pretended that it was only Sandra Serrano and it was not. And those are the kind of lies that they were perpetrating.

So that's one of the places that I thought that we really missed. Missed the boat.

ZAC: In terms of the girl in the polka dot dress. I think it's just harder. You know I really focused on Sandra Serrano and I thought that was a good way in. I just felt like she was the perfect perfect microcosm for basically what happened. Hearing Hernandez just tear her up and she's just a witness as you always say. So I felt like that sort of told the story and without complicating it. And I know that your list goes up to thirty but we disagree about how strong all of those witnesses are.

BILL: No my list goes up to fifty four . Thirty is my-

ZAC: Fair enough.

BILL: - the strong number I have there. But yeah but I think Serrano alone oh this girl saw some people running out they scream something and the police didn't like this story and they were a little hard on her and okay, so what, they shouldn't have been so hard on her. But when you realize how many other people saw this woman and saw this woman with not just Sirhan but with another man and Sirhan. You know now, now there's something else being hidden.

ZAC: After she was on television.

BILL: After she was on television after it was in the newspapers but if you were there that night you know there's a thousand people in the ballroom and he's shot. And you go home and you're devastated. And two days later you read in The Los Angeles Times that there was a suspicious woman in a polka dot dress with Sirhan that night and you say "My God, we saw that woman" and you call the FBI and you call the police. So just because it happened after the newspaper article comes out doesn't mean all these people are lying and making it up. That's the natural thing. It's what you would do, it’s what I would do.

ZAC: I don't think they're lying. I just feel like memory is hard. And so it's like when when they're thinking back on that night did you - “I kind of remember seeing that girl.” and then as they replayed over and over again “I definitely saw that girl.” So I just think - no he doesn't like that.

BILL: No, because when you read these people's statements you know oh she saw that she saw the woman and they looked out of place and with another guy and she reported it to someone and that person reported to somebody else. And each one of these stories has a story to it. Now are they all making it up? I don't think so.

ZAC: Well our dear friend, friend of the show, Rosaleen Eastman wrote a beautiful song about a girl in the polka dot dress and it's going to be on the soundtrack. Rosaleen Eastman.

ZAC: She’ll be back to sing another song in a little bit. Welcome to the stage a special guest, Mr. Dan Moldea. They both brought files so get ready. So when's the last time you saw each other?

BILL: I think it was when we were visiting Sirhan I think it was the last time.

DAN: Bill and I both visited Sirhan for the first time. It was my first time it was your first time. We drove up to Corcoran State penitentiary with Adel Sirhan. I just it was when I was still in the two guns thing.

BILL: Yeah I know I remember.

DAN: And I was.

BILL: I mean you you're saying things like -  

DAN: Go ahead, let me have it.

BILL: That that Berenger he said to me “It wasn't a fucking nail hole it was a bullet hole.” And then Collier said you know you know.

ZAC: They're talking extra bullets.

DAN: Listen I was in a position where I thought I'd made history.

and I'm sure you'll acknowledge that the story that I did for Regardie’s Magazine was the story that led to the opening of the files where the City of Los Angeles released the files which all of us benefited from as a result.

BILL: I think the files were on their way to being opened.

DAN: They were not on their way. They weren't even there wasn't even on anybody's agenda until my story came out. And that's been acknowledged by The Los Angeles Times. That's been acknowledged by The Washington Post among other publications.

BILL: Okay that's fine.

DAN: I know. I know. I know Bill I know Bill it's going to be it's going to be it's going to be hard for you to give me any credit whatsoever.

BILL: I want to give you a lot of credit because I think that you really did you know come a long distance to solving the case there with these.

DAN: Bill I did solve the case. I did solve the case.

BILL: Explain explain to me how you.

DAN:  Police solve the murder. I solved the case because I showed how the police errors led to people like us believing that there were two guns in that room.

BILL: Okay. Tell us that story.

DAN: What part of it do you want to know?

BILL: The Walter Tew story.

DAN: The Walter Tew story. Well, you had you had all these reports done by the LAPD and no one ever got a magnifying glass and looked in the holes and there was 723 LASO. I called a source of mine at the Los Angeles Sheriff's Office. I said, “who was badge 723 on June 4th 1968?” He said, “Walt W Tew, T-E-W.”  He was a motorcycle cop a very fine person honest cop, but he wasn't a criminalist.

BILL: Yeah. So, so how did this affect you that he was a motorcycle cop?

DAN: Well it augmented what I already believed about the bullet holes that they weren't in fact bullet holes.

BILL: Uh-huh. But they weren't. They were identified as bullet holes by William Bailey.

DAN: William Bailey has had conflicting versions of this from the beginning. The first person he went to was Vince Bugliosi.

ZAC: There's an FBI guy called William Bailey who identified-

DAN: The first person he went to Vince Bugliosi. Vince Bugliosi never mentioned he said that Bailey never mentioned a word about the about the bullet holes.

BILL: Yeah, so Bill Bailey didn’t know what he was talking about?

DAN: Bill Bailey did not know what he was talking about. That’s correct. He did not know.

BILL: Why then is there no police report saying “Gee we took these doorframes down and golly gee instead of bullets they were countersunk nails.” There is no such report. There's no evidence at all from the police.

DAN: They didn't keep it as evidence because there were no bullets in the doorframes Bill, there were no bullets.

BILL: And you have you have twenty five people saying that they saw these bullet holes and but in your case they were all misled by this one motorcycle cop who put circles around them

DAN: I talked to 114 police officers who were part of this investigation. I spent like two years going after these guys.

BILL: So how do you get the bullet in Paul Schrade's head?

DAN: Because the first shot missed Kennedy. And hit Paul Schrade in the head.

BILL: Okay then, now get four bullets in and in the back of Bobby Kennedy at a steep upward angle.

DAN: What you have is a situation where Sirhan is hiding behind an ice machine, right? He's by a tray stacker by the ice machine. He attacks, his hands out. He's he's moving fast and he's lunging. And from what I understand he shouts "Kennedy you son of a bitch." Kennedy according to Paul Schrade has just released a handshake from a busboy and he's taken a step towards a steam table which is bolted to the floor. When Sirhan rushes at Kennedy, he describes the moment when his eyes meet Kennedy's. Mike McGowan says to me-

BILL: I know Mike McGowan.

DAN: Well our good audience doesn’t know this.

BILL: No you’re right. Here comes Mike McGowan.

DAN: So let me speak to the audience then. Mike McGowan is an investigator for Sirhan defense team and McGowan says, “Well why didn't you shoot him between the eyes?” And Sirhan replies, “Because that son of a bitch turned his head at the last second.” Now why would he be turning his head? He's got a guy rushing at him with a gun shouting "Kennedy you son of a bitch." Is he going to stand there? He's going to go like this. He's going to turn defensively. The shot hits Paul Schrade and Sirhan has him 1,2,3,4 shots.

BILL: That's great because if that really happened and Kennedy is pushed up against the steam table now he'd almost have to be on his hands and knees at that point. Where would he be found? He would be found on his face down in front of the steam table.

DAN: You're telling me you can tell with absolute certainty how a person is reacting as he's being hit by gunfire?

BILL: Yes I would say a bullet to the back of the head.

DAN: You’re saying a person under attack is going to be going to be fully conscious of his movements. I'm saying Bill you're playing a weak hand if you're making that claim.

BILL: Oh. I would say if he’s on his hands and knees taking a bullet to the back of his head from a steam table he would be found somewhere very near the steam table on his face.

DAN: Unless.

BILL: In fact, he's found 10 or 12 feet away on his back.

DAN: Unless he's pinned against the table. It was a small area. I've been there I'm sure you've been there, it's a very small area. Everyone was pushing forward forward forward. Kennedy was pushed up against the steam table. Schrade falls and then Kennedy falls. Sirhan had clear opportunity to get him four times at point blank range.

BILL: At point blank range.

DAN: Yeah.

BILL:  So we have a lot of difficulties here we have a bullet. According to the police that enters pulsates head that defies the laws of Newton, because they have to make it go through Kennedy's shirt.

DAN: That's not necessarily true, you don't know that.

BILL: Well that's what they said.

DAN: That's what the LAPD said so when the LAPD says something you agree with, that's part of your conspiracy fantasy you'll use it. If they say something that's exculpatory then you’ll use it for that.

BILL: No this is their accounting of the shots and what I'm saying.

DAN: Which was wrong. I agree with that. I think their accounting was wrong.

BILL: But imagine this. Imagine that there's somebody standing behind Robert Kennedy. Sirhan gets off two shots in the direction he's wrestled down to the steam table he continues to.

DAN: According to Karl Uecker who has also changed his story repeatedly.

BILL: No. So. He continues to fire his gun the bullets spray out in a particular direction wounding witnesses and these witnesses are also standing in front of the door frames which take bullets also. In the meantime somebody standing behind Robert Kennedy with a gun pressed up against his back. He fires four times at point blank range. So that's how you get bullets in the ceiling tiles. That's how you get bullets in the door frames and bullets in the bystanders and that's how you get thirteen bullets and that account you don't have to defy the laws of Newton or anything.

DAN: I reject everything you've just said. I mean it makes no sense there's no evidence of it. And it's ridiculous.

AUSTIN: More after the break.



BREAK

BILL: What. What about you know the woman seen with Sirhan?

DAN: The polka dot dress girl?

BILL: Yeah.

DAN: So we're going to have this very sophisticated conspiracy and we're going to have all these things, movements and everything is going to be synchronized and everything - and then you're going to have the conspirators running out of the crime scene taking credit for it. “We shot him, we shot him, we shot Senator Kennedy.” It doesn't make sense to be the somebody who's part of a sophisticated murder conspiracy is going to run out of the crime scene taking credit for it.

BILL: Well, she was hysterical but she was seen with Sirhan in the pantry and according to Vincent DiPierro she was almost holding him and they were talking and she was. She was there with him. And there was another guy in the room also and yeah she ran out of the room saying, “We got him, we got him, we shot him.” I can't explain her behavior but apparently she was hysterical.

DAN: I think she's telling the truth. I think I think Sandy Serrano is telling the truth. I think she heard exactly what she heard. I am second to none of my criticism of Hank Hernandez and whoever else browbeat her into submission on that thing. I believe she heard what she heard. I believe her.

BILL: So then why did the police shut down the investigation as soon as they broke her?

DAN: Because they knew it didn’t matter, it’s minutia. Bill you're a smart. You're a smart, honest, dedicated guy. And you get sucked into this minutia which you know so very well. but you are a good decent person who refuses to admit that you're wrong. I had submitted a proposal to my publisher and I said I'm going to prove two guns in the room. Sirhan didn't it do it, Gene Cesar did it.

BILL: There's no question Sirhan, he's there with a gun shooting.

DAN: But my point is my point is I was ready to put. I couldn't just let this thing go and keep with the two gun conspiracy theory. I had to come to that point where I had to admit that I was wrong.

BILL: Oh I'm glad that's good.

ZAC: One last thing I want to bring up is Thane Cesar. So let's talk Thane Cesar for a second guys. You tracked him down, everyone thought he was dead.

DAN: Listen I'm an only person in the world living or dead who's interviewed both Sirhan Sirhan and Thane Eugene Cesar. And when I first got into this I was convinced that Cesar may have been the guy who did it.

ZAC: Security guard standing behind Kennedy, drew his gun...

DAN: With a gun in his hand and powder burns on his face. And so I went after I went after Cesar. I was on my feet pointing my finger at him. You've heard the tape, accusing him of doing the murder. Cesar basically laughed at me. I don't even think I had this guy off balance through the whole interview. He was in full confidence because he knew he didn't do it.

BILL: Okay. So then the police evidence that you collected from the policemen about the extra bullets in that case that would have been good evidence at that moment. That only became bad evidence when you decided that Cesar didn't do it. And then all of a sudden you needed to invent a reason why it was bad evidence and you came up with this whole little Walter Tew idea.

DAN: Bill. You know we we - I'm a civilian investigator with without subpoena power, I have no subpoena power. I have limited access and resources. I had to play this thing the way I had to play it. just as you honestly and with integrity and in true belief believe that there's two guns in this room and that there's a conspiracy behind it. I admire you, I respect you for having that kind of principle.

BILL: One of the reasons I think that is work that you did. And you can't take that work back just because you've changed your mind.

DAN: Obviously if Cesar if I had if I had broken Cesar down on all those occasions when I interviewed him and he had confessed to the murder obviously that would have been a game changer for me. I have no idea how I would've reacted to that. Again I had in my first interview with him as you pointed out in your program I thought I was gonna that was going to be the end to my book. I was going to get this guy. I was going to get his confession. And that was and I was going to solve this case once and for all, solve the murder and solve the case. And I thought that was how it was going to end.

BILL: And when it didn't happen. You said, “Gee well what am I going to do now well. Let’s see I got a guy in jail.”

DAN: Bill. I had to find. How much time and money going to spend on a guy who has completely defied me in all of my interviews with him and now he's passed the polygraph test? At what point do I surrender?

BILL: I'm fine with clearing Cesar it just doesn't eliminate all the other evidence.

DAN: Who are the other people in the room with guns in their hands and powder burns on their face? Who else is there?

BILL: There are a few people but.

DAN: Right there at Kennedy with Kennedy right there at point blank range?

BILL: I admit it's a problem.

DAN: It's not a problem Bill. Just admit Sirhan's lying and that that's the end of the problem.

BILL: Well I don't admit that I don't think he is lying. I think he doesn't remember the crime. I think he's a sincere person and got caught up in something he has no idea about. When you and I were there we saw a very gentle man. He's an intellect, had decent mind. He didn't have a television in his cell he had a radio he listened to NPR he listened to all things considered you know.

CROWD: That makes him innocent.

DAN: I believe Sirhan remembers everything. I believe Sirhan remembers everything. Here are Sirhan's handwritten notes given to Mike McGowan. He does not talk about the moment of the shooting. But he talks about his movements in the hotel. So you're saying that he could turn the mind control on and turn it off.

BILL: I think they did a bunch of experiments in his jail cell where they were able to hypnotize Sirhan in a matter of five seconds and they're able to give him post hypnotic suggestions which he carried out to a tee. They brought them out afterwards and you know Diamond takes out his handkerchief blows his nose and Sirhan is climbing.

DAN: Bill, you and I both know how smart Sirhan is. He's a smart guy.

BILL: Oh he was faking all that stuff.

DAN: I think he's faking everything.

BILL: Well.

DAN: He remembers everything.

ZAC: So we're going to we're going to we're going to we're going to take a tiny pause. I'm sure-

DAN: Thank you for your participation in this interaction.

ZAC: I'm trying to get a word in edgewise. So the man at the center of this whole thing we haven't talked a lot about him. Do you guys have any reflections on Bobby Kennedy?

BILL: I was mystified I was mystified by your father's comment in the last episode.

ZAC: Tell me.

BILL: He said something and I'm paraphrasing now but I don't care who murdered him. The important thing is that he was an amazing man that was taken from us and it seemed to me those things just don't go together. If he's an amazing person that's been taken from us, who murdered him and why would seem to me that the next question.

ZAC: My dad was talking about Bobby Kennedy's words being more important right now in our time and I got to say that's that's how I feel.

DAN: I’m more interested in hearing Robert Mueller’s words right now, that’s what I’m interested in.

ZAC: Segue, good segue. Do you know what I - does that clarify it a little bit for you or not really?

BILL: No because if. I'm going to be a conspiracy nut here but I believe that John Kennedy was murdered by a conspiracy and that probably if that happened and they got away with it then they're not going to sit around and let his brother ascend to the presidency and that's something we need to know about.

ZAC: While we were making this podcast the word conspiracy theory changed in the - in society where we started this podcast before Mr. Trump was elected.  And now. In my opinion right now it means Sandy Hook didn't happen. It means the Parkland students are somehow crisis actors. So to promote any sort of conspiracy feels a lot more dangerous right now than it did when we started this podcast.

BILL: I don't understand what that means then we shouldn't should we change our lang-

ZAC: We should be careful about some of the stuff that we're insinuating we should make sure that it's built on very very solid solid foundation.

BILL: But we should we should anyway. I mean if we going to say the President of the United States was killed by a conspiracy we'd better be on solid ground.

ZAC:  Right.

BILL: And the same with Martin Luther King and Bob Kennedy. So I don't think I don't think that ground has changed at all.

ZAC: Well we disagree about how solid the ground is.

DAN: On the Bob Kennedy case?

ZAC: Yeah.

DAN: Because I agree with with Bill about the JFK case. I mean again I think it's a it's a straight mob hit.

ZAC: Uhh, let's hear another song. Welcome back Rosaleen Eastman.

ROSE: This one's called Abraham, Martin, and John.

ROSE: That’s for Bobby.

ZAC: Okay. So we'll takes some questions and there's a microphone. Austin’s coming. Austin to the rescue. But I have some things some questions from Twitter. Possibility of having the case reopened?

BILL: None. It won't be reopened.

ZAC: Why do you say that?

BILL: There's no venue for it. There's no. It's past the point the people who were like back then most of them are not alive. Statute of limitations has run on most things.

DAN: Not murder, not murder.

BILL: Well sure. But there are the crimes that the police committed. The statute has run on those and there's there's no politician that would derive any benefit from doing this. There's no way it can happen really. We're just fighting over history at this point.

ZAC: Um. Did Bill think ZSP was a sell out?

BILL: Did I think what?

ZAC: Did you think I was a sellout?

BILL: The thought occurred to me.

DAN: I think you're right on target Zac. I thought it was a brilliant piece of broadcast journalism, good job.

ZAC: Thanks Dan. Okay, any questions?

WOMAN: I have a question. So I will say I lean more towards incompetence over conspiracy. But I am curious about the conversation you guys had about Gene Cesar what the exonerating evidence beyond the polygraph? Because polygraphs, the science is kind of mixed on this and he didn’t break down and cry in front of you. But like besides those two things, what’s the exonerating evidence?

DAN: Again it was it. I needed a test or measurement to figure out how much time me personally civilian investigator was going to spend on this guy.  And I'm telling you right now. This guy was not taken. He was not off balance with me at any point during our many, many, many interviews. I still talk to him. I talk to him still. I've been on the phone to him fairly regularly. Because now I'm I now come and Bill criticized me for this but I defend the guy now. I have his power of attorney. He gave me his power. I'm godfather to his son. Yeah he was so grateful to me for getting him off the hook he made me godfather to his son four years after my book came out.

ZAC: Our fact checker’s going to look into that.

DAN: Again I feel bad for a guy for 49 years has been accused of murder when in fact he's an innocent man wrongly accused.

QUESTION: I have a question for Zac, so one of the things that the podcast was missing was of course you meeting with Sirhan, right that’s something that both Bill and Dan got to do. If you got to meet with Sirhan what would you like to ask him?

ZAC: I sent him questions. I tried really hard to get an interview with Sirhan. He may be an NPR listener but he's not a podcast listener. I pitched Laurie Dusek really really hard and hounded her for a long time and submitted questions to Munir, his brother, who's one of the gate gatekeepers. He's been interviewed so many times over the years it's hard to know what I would ask him.

QUESTION: Hey Bill, I was wondering if you had any theories about the Rosicrucians role in all this? Cause I guess it was covered a bit and just kind of fell off after and I’m just wondering like were they just recruiters or like what’s the theory around this?

BILL: I don't know. It's one of those strange things that's sort of lurking out there as if Sirhan did fall into was - if his mind was manipulated and I believe there's strong evidence that it was who did he fall into? How did he fall into it? And there are various theories that after he fell off the horse at the racetrack he went on a medical odyssey and may have stumbled into the wrong doctor's office or maybe with his Rosicrucian you know experiments he got involved with some people who led him in that direction. I don't have any evidence. So the answer is I don't know.

DAN: I think it's bullshit.

ZAC: Dan - Dan thinks he did it and Bill doesn't. Alright thanks very much for coming. We're going to be outside and thanks a lot.

Episode Credits

Crimetown is me, Zac Stuart-Pontier and Marc Smerling.
The RFK Tapes is made in partnership with Cadence 13.
The show is produced by Jesse Rudoy, Bill Klaber, and Ula Kulpa.
Austin Mitchell is our senior producer.
Editing by Marc Smerling. Fact checking by Jennifer Blackman.

This episode was mixed, sound designed and scored by Kenny Kusiak.
Additional music by John Kusiak.
Our title track is Maria Tambien by Khruangbin. Our credit track this week is “Abraham, Martin, John, and Bobby,” covered by Rosaleen Eastman. 
Music supervision by Josh Kessler and Dylan Bostick at Heavy Duty Projects.

Recording help by Donnie Carlo at WTMD in Towson, Maryland. 
Production assistance by Kevin Shepherd.
Our website is designed by Curt Courtenay.

Archival footage courtesy of the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth and the California State Archives.
Archival research by Brennan Rees.

Thanks to Emily Wiedemann, Jean Klaber, Greencard Pictures, Alessandro Santoro, Ryan Murdock, Max Miller, Ben Davis, Oren Rosenbaum, Ryan Nord, Judith Farrar, Elizabeth Benham, and the team at Cadence 13.

For more information on the Robert Kennedy murder, pick up a copy of Bill’s book, Shadow Play.
If you like the show, please consider leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. It really helps others find out about show.

You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @theRFKtapes.

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